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Jim Warren
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 Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:02 pm Post subject: Re: Another car, another problem |
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Rob wrote:
| Quote: |
Jim Warren wrote:
Stuart H. wrote:
Vapour Lock in the fuel line?
Stuart H.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
That is a possibility I haven't checked for yet, but I would have
thought the electric fuel pump would tick rapidly if it was trying to
move vapour rather than petrol. Also, the incoming pipe to the pump is
a reasonable distance from the engine and manifolds - though I admit I
haven't checked how close it gets to the exhaust along its run from the
tank.
It is certainly worth checking for. And when I left the car last night,
it was still refusing to start, so it will be interesting to see how
much fuel is in the float chamber before the pump refills it.
Jim
You can pull the hose off the float bowl and check the flow also the
pump pressure is very low for the SU carby.
Secondly if you tap the side of the bowl and it starts the pump ticking
rapidly its a sure sign its empty or if it overflows its a needle and
seat problem.
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Thanks. I am fed up with dodging the showers today, but I will try
that. Also, I notice that the pump has a filter which could be blocked
- I will check and clean that too.
Jim |
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Jim Warren
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: Another car, another problem |
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Timo Geusch wrote:
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Jim Warren <jimwarren@OMITblueyonder.co.uk> writes:
I will check later today and report back.
What's the battery voltage with the ignition off?
Again, I haven't checked exactly this. But with the ignition on last
night, I was getting 12.6V across the coil terminals.
Hmm. Check the voltage at the battery terminals - a fully charged 12V
battery should have around 13V-13.2V if it's good. If you get around 13V
at the battery but 12.6V at the coil, you may have a couple of corroded
connections that increase the resistance in the circuits.
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Bearing in mind that the battery is definitely not fully charged now - I
spent nearly an hour last night turning the engine over checking sparks
and voltages and I haven't put any charge back in it yet. A meter
across the battery terminals showed 12.5V late this morning, ignition
off. This dropped to 10.4V when the starter motor was turning (again
with ignition off)
| Quote: |
Trouble with added resistance is that is heats up the affected
connectors, which may increase resistance over time. The symptoms you
describe suggest that heat may well play a part in the non-starter
scenario.
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I have seen this with a dropper resistance on a Triumph. The Minor
hasn't got a dropper though.
| Quote: |
I will follow up Rob's suggestion of cleaning the connections to the |
fuse box. A couple of the spades looked as if they could do with a clean.
Unfortunately then the showers started, so I have given up for today. It
is pointless trying to sort out starting problems with wet electrics.
| Quote: |
Yes and no. I was wondering if you had a dead cell - I've had that
before, one cell was dead and the others were OK, so your basic checks
suggest that you've got a working battery, but it won't play ball that
well with the starter cranking, even though you don't get any of the
obvious duff battery symptoms. But your 12.6V mentioned above pretty
much rules this out.
I will have to go for another run to get everything hot before I can |
experiment any further - it always starts first time when cold. So I
will measure it again when it is charged up. But I have had a dead cell
before (in another car, a long time ago), and it definitely affected the
cranking speed.
Jim |
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Jim Warren
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: Another car, another problem |
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Conor wrote:
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In article <xaz9k.17509$E41.16238@text.news.virginmedia.com>, Jim
Warren says...
And when the engine starts, it runs normally which
indicates the plugs are OK, it is just that sometimes (when the engine
is hot) it won't start.
I had this on my Capri with a Weber 32/36 DGAS carburettor. Turned out
the carburettor was worn. There's a tube in the middle of each choke.
Fuel passes from the float chamber into this tube and is then dispersed
into the barrel. What had happened is this tube had become loose so the
fuel was just dribbling down the side of the barrel instead of going
into the tube. Upshot was that it'd start when cold when the choke came
on but not when it was hot. Once it had started, it seemed to run OK.
Same symptoms as you seem to be experiencing. Yeah I know its a
completely different carb but its worth a look.
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Yes, worth a look. I did just once try pulling out the choke when it
wouldn't start, and it made no difference, though.
| Quote: |
As an aside, there's a dodgy batch of rotor arms doing the rounds. My
dad went through three, even buying a new dizzy as he thought it was
that, before he got one that worked OK. Basically what was happening
was that the metal strip which acts as a kind of spring retainer wasn't
doing the job so it wobbled about after a while. The first replacement
came from near Northampton, the second from Driffield and the third was
mail order from the owners club - all with the same fault.
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I tried buying a rotor arm from Wares while I was buying the coil. Out
of stock, waiting for more to come in. I can't see anything wrong with
the one currently fitted though, and once the engine starts it runs OK.
I will have to hunt around in the back of the garage. Somewhere around
I should have a scrap dizzy with the bearings gone from a Dolomite, but
the rotor arm should be OK if it is still on it. Better a known old one
than a doubtful new one, provided they are the same size. At least it
will eliminate one option.
Jim |
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Rob
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:15 am Post subject: Re: Another car, another problem |
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Jim
Small spark insufficient to fire the motor.
Then, whats the compression like? No compression when hot, also makes
starting difficult.
Thats just to throw another spanner in the works :)
r |
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Jim Warren
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:53 am Post subject: Re: Another car, another problem |
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Rob wrote:
| Quote: |
Jim
Small spark insufficient to fire the motor.
Then, whats the compression like? No compression when hot, also makes
starting difficult.
Thats just to throw another spanner in the works :)
r
According to the documentation that came with the car, it had a full |
recon engine 2 years ago. Plenty of compression felt when turning the
engine on the starting handle. I will, in desperation, check with a
compression tester, but I really don't think it will show a problem.
A nice fat spark is seen at the end of the coil HT lead, though I admit
that I haven't observed the spark at the end of a spark plug lead.
Something else to check. Thanks for the hint.
Jim |
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Ian
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:52 pm Post subject: Re: Another car, another problem |
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On 30 Jun, 11:28, Jim Warren <jimwar...@OMITblueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: |
But the engine doesn't stop when hot, it just refuses to restart if I
switch the engine off while it is hot.
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Sorry if you've covered this, but can I check ... is that on the
starter and with the handle?
Is the piston in the carb sliding smoothly? Is there oil in the
dashpot? Is the float chamber breather clear?
Ian |
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Willy Eckerslyke
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: Another car, another problem |
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Rob wrote:
| Quote: |
Timo
Voltage drop, check by bridging the fuses and starting off the solenoid,
bypasses the ignition switch circuit.
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Or run a wire direct from the battery to the coil? Then it also avoids
any bad connections in the circuit. |
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Jim Warren
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:44 pm Post subject: Re: Another car, another problem |
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Willy Eckerslyke wrote:
| Quote: |
Rob wrote:
Timo
Voltage drop, check by bridging the fuses and starting off the solenoid,
bypasses the ignition switch circuit.
Or run a wire direct from the battery to the coil? Then it also avoids
any bad connections in the circuit.
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Yes, that is one of my To Do list.
The trouble is that the car has now cooled down and the problem will
have gone away, so further diagnostics will have to wait until I have
time to take the car on another decent run.
Jim |
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Dan Smithers
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:01 pm Post subject: Re: Another car, another problem |
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Jimmy wrote:
| Quote: |
Jim Warren wrote:
Elder wrote:
In article <J7q7k.13721$E41.9017@text.news.virginmedia.com>,
jimwarren@OMITblueyonder.co.uk says...
Chris Bolus wrote:
Check the fuel pump. They're notorious. See if it's delivering fuel.
Usually cleaning up the contacts in the pump solves the problem.
That was the first thing I checked. It ticked once when I turned
the ignition on, and there was a smell of unburnt petrol from the
tailpipe when I had wound the engine over for a while. It is not a
fuel fault, I am sure.
Jim
I fitted a halfords rotor arm and cap to a rangie that I was fettling
for LPG and after a few weeks it ran crap and wouldn't run while hot
but was fine while cool, tried everything bar the rotor and cap.
I was convinced it was fuel or coil etc.
In the end, I took the cap off. Bingo, inside of cap was chewed up as
was the carbon contact. Rotor was pretty eaten too. Partco one cured
that.
The cap and carbon brush are in good nick. The rotor arm looks new
and undamaged, but I haven't taken it off to see what the makers name
is (if it is actually shown). Buying another one just in case
wouldn't break the bank though.
Jim
Hows the point gap?
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I had a problem on my MG Magnette where I had a nice fat spark from the
coil, but the rotor, distributer cap combination didn't work. There
wasn't a good connection between the arm and the cap but if the engine
was turned over holding the cap and rotor arm in contact (off the
distributor) then it was fine.
I know you have checked them, but it might be worth trying new ones in case.
I still think that the stopping when hot sounds like a coil problem
though - even though you have replaced it you.
dan |
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Jim Warren
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: Another car, another problem |
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Dan Smithers wrote:
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I had a problem on my MG Magnette where I had a nice fat spark from the
coil, but the rotor, distributer cap combination didn't work. There
wasn't a good connection between the arm and the cap but if the engine
was turned over holding the cap and rotor arm in contact (off the
distributor) then it was fine.
I know you have checked them, but it might be worth trying new ones in case.
I still think that the stopping when hot sounds like a coil problem
though - even though you have replaced it you.
dan
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It is now a brand new coil. The old coil was hot to touch after a run,
the new one was fairly warm. But the coil is mounted on top of the
dynamo which places it in the airstream through the radiator, so it is
bound to heat up a bit.
I couldn't get a new rotor arm from Wares - they are waiting for stock
to come in. And I don't want to get one from Halfords because if anyone
is going to have stocks of the bad batch it is likely to be them. I
also need to have a really close look at the distributor cap under a
magnifying glass to see if I can see any signs of tracking, but it looks
fairly new and the carbon brush moves easily in its slot, so I don't
really suspect it.
But the engine doesn't stop when hot, it just refuses to restart if I
switch the engine off while it is hot.
Jim |
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Jim Warren
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:48 pm Post subject: Re: Another car, another problem |
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Ian wrote:
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On 30 Jun, 11:28, Jim Warren <jimwar...@OMITblueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
But the engine doesn't stop when hot, it just refuses to restart if I
switch the engine off while it is hot.
Sorry if you've covered this, but can I check ... is that on the
starter and with the handle?
|
With both. I have tried with the handle when the electric starter
wasn't successful, with no luck. But once (and just once) when
everything was cooling down and the engine had been switched off for
over an hour, it wouldn't start on the starter, but then I put the
handle in and checked the spark off the coil lead as I turned it over (a
good spark) and then I reconnected the HT lead and turned the handle
round to line up the prongs (?) with the slot in the bumper ready to
withdraw the handle, it started. I put this down to more cooling as a
result of raising the bonnet.
But having started it, I drove home - there is a limit to how long they
want cars to sit in a supermarket car park. Yes it would have been nice
to switch it off again and see if it restarted, but I didn't dare, in
case it didn't.
| Quote: |
Is the piston in the carb sliding smoothly? Is there oil in the
dashpot? Is the float chamber breather clear?
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There is oil in the dashpot. The piston does slide smoothly.
I didn't know there was a float chamber breather! Where is it?
Jim |
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Ian
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:55 am Post subject: Re: Another car, another problem |
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On 30 Jun, 16:48, Jim Warren <jimwar...@OMITblueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: |
There is oil in the dashpot. The piston does slide smoothly.
I didn't know there was a float chamber breather! Where is it?
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Little hole in the float chamber cover, I think, though on some SUs
(I'm used to Reliant ones) it's a pipe. If that teensy little hole
clogs up the heat of the engine can evaporate the petrol, built up
pressure and flood the engine. Been there, done that.
Ian |
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Jim Warren
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:33 pm Post subject: Re: Another car, another problem |
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Ian wrote:
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On 30 Jun, 16:48, Jim Warren <jimwar...@OMITblueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
There is oil in the dashpot. The piston does slide smoothly.
I didn't know there was a float chamber breather! Where is it?
Little hole in the float chamber cover, I think, though on some SUs
(I'm used to Reliant ones) it's a pipe. If that teensy little hole
clogs up the heat of the engine can evaporate the petrol, built up
pressure and flood the engine. Been there, done that.
Ian
I have just taken the top off the float chamber, the float and needle |
moved easily and the fuel level inside was about right. But I wish I
had read your post before I did that, and then I could have looked at
the teensy little hole (I didn't notice it). Because if the pressure
floods the engine, then the excess would disappear into the manifold and
I wouldn't notice it.
Unfortunately, I have other things to do now, so it will have to wait.
Jim |
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Jim Warren
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: Another car, another problem |
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Jimmy wrote:
| Quote: |
Hows the point gap?
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More than 15 thou, less than 20 (I couldn't be bothered to fiddle with
all the very thin feelers!)
One thing that wasn't obvious though was how the engine earths (though I
only looked from on top and not from underneath). Is there supposed to
be an earth braid from engine block to body?
There obviously is a connection because the starter motor spins and the
dynamo charges. A meter shows a resistance of almost exactly 1 ohm from
battery terminal to manifold stud, so there obviously is a low
resistance path. I just can't see it.
Oh, and for those interested in the battery voltages, the ones I posted
before were after fiddling with the starter etc for a fair while,
running the battery down.
So I started the engine, ran it for a quarter of an hour at enough revs
to get a decent charge out of the dynamo and then measured:
With engine running and dynamo charging: 14.1V
Ignition off and engine stopped: 13V
I am happy with those readings.
Jim |
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Roberts
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:55 pm Post subject: Re: Another car, another problem |
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"Jim Warren" <jimwarren@OMITblueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:nZb7k.13456$E41.5815@text.news.virginmedia.com...
| Quote: |
I have just taken possession of a Minor 1000. It started first time and I
drove home (about 10 miles) with no problems at all. I switched off the
engine to use the keys to lock the boot, then started it up to park it a
bit more tidily.
It started first time, I drove forward about 4 feet and the engine cut
out. It wouldn't restart, though just occasionally one cylinder fired,
which was just enough to throw the starter bendix out of engagement.
A look under the bonnet showed good quality HT leads, new(ish) distributor
cap with a free-moving carbon brush, new points, new rotor arm, new
condenser. So clue: it has happened before, and someone has done
something about it. No loose wires on the coil or distributor either.
Nevertheless, it refused to start.
I left it while I got on with something else. A couple of hours later, I
tried it again. It started first time and ran perfectly.
Obviously, it is something that resets itself when the engine cools down.
My gut instinct says it is a dodgy coil, but the only way to diagnose the
problem properly is to check things systematically.
However, there is a limit to how many times I want to go on a 10 mile run
in the hope of reproducing the fault, whilst praying it doesn't leave me
by the roadside miles from anywhere waiting for it to cool down enough to
restart.
So has anybody had a fault like this before, and if so what caused it?
Jim
Hi |
My guess would be the coil but I am reminded of a similar problem on a
Moggie 1000. You set the points correctly but due to wear in the distributor
spindle the points gap was erratic. Check the gap in several positions and
check the gap when it will not start. It's a long shot but it had me going
round in circles. Being pretty tight I averaged the gap in several
positions - not for people who are fussy!
Alan |
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